Wow, no FlyInside Progress in 6 months

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Wow, no FlyInside Progress in 6 months

Postby jimdrozeck » Sat Nov 11, 2017 8:05 pm

I have been off the simulations for 6 months, just had cause to purchase P3D v4 and get everything back up & running. Just installed/started FlyInside, was shocked to see that it STILL, after I and numerous others have requested the ability to disable VR and go back to the computer screen for bonafide flight training on PilotEdge or elsewhere, that this simple capability still does not exist. Wow. Even Lockheed has implemented it, unfortunately it lacks the graphics options that FlyInside has, but that's what I'll be using for VR from here on.

To me its both amazing and disappointing that such a basic and essential capability is not yet implemented. Goodbye, I out out of here.
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Re: Wow, no FlyInside Progress in 6 months

Postby Tony » Sun Nov 12, 2017 4:44 pm

There wasn't even a Flyinside for P3D v4 6months ago. Progress has been steady with loads of bug fixes that take priority. Sorry to see you go, hopefully you'll pop back when we catch up with many features.
Tony F
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FlyInside Inc.
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Re: Wow, no FlyInside Progress in 6 months

Postby RarphRaider » Sun Dec 03, 2017 11:01 pm

does anyone even use P3D flyinside? Will anyone even buy their "flight simulator" after this experience?

I wish they would just fix the many many very obvious bugs in the software. Its extremely frustrating.

There's game breaking bug sitting there for who knows how long. These are not the type of bugs that takes 6 months to fix. More like 1 day.
XP11 11.02r2 FI 1.81 HTC Vive Zotac 1080 i7 7770k Win10x64
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Re: Wow, no FlyInside Progress in 6 months

Postby Greyman » Mon Dec 04, 2017 4:33 am

could you please post some details of the bugs that you are experiencing, particularly the one that you feel is the game breaker, so that the devs have more than just unhelpful rhetoric to go on?

Your frustrations are far more likely to be addressed if you could do that.
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Re: Wow, no FlyInside Progress in 6 months

Postby Conceit » Mon Dec 04, 2017 1:09 pm

Well, honestly I can only support the other users' claims here, Tony. As an example, the whole support for motion controllers (e.g., Oculus Touch on FSX) isn't working very decently. These are not exactly "bugs", but it is far away from being mature. Many controls are not reachable, or not even implemented, or usable with motion controllers. I am also disappointed that these very obvious issues (just try flying Boeing or Airbus on a Steam FSX) that I categorized under "early release issues" found no further polishing. Also, I had bugs in multi-monitor mode (with FSX trying to find windows on the wrong desktop), and we already talked about that. I found work-arounds by myself, but it is still nasty to edit config files every now-and-then. As there was no release since then, I guess nothing happened here. I'm sure if there was a public bug database, you'd have a nice collection of tasks without needing to ask your customes to prove their complaints on the forum.

The forum and support isn't actually on fire as well. I read threads about persons not getting their serial#, and who are mad that they have to go to the forums with these issues because support does not respond on emails. Also, many posts on the forums stay unanswered, like that guy asking for ways to incorporate tool-windows into VR prior to buying a VR headset, and so on. To me as a casual user, this looks like abandonware: Six months, no progress, slow support, users help users on the forum, and the team's stuck with new products to generate more income. Not seeing any form of lifecycle management whatsoever.

Maybe you guys have to maintain too many products in a too small team. FlyInside FSX/XPlane/P3Dv3/P3Dv4 and now your very own simulator. It is noteworthy that everything stagnated as soon as you announced the new flight sim. Obviously, you do not see that you already have a user base of willing-to-pay customers. Literally, everybody with a VR headset and flight-sim fetish already came along your products. That means, we are the customers for your brand new flight sim.

I wonder how you want to sell me a flight sim, when you work so hard to make me believe you're the type of guys who abandon their products long before the development was finished?
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Re: Wow, no FlyInside Progress in 6 months

Postby admin » Mon Dec 04, 2017 9:56 pm

jimdrozeck wrote:I have been off the simulations for 6 months, just had cause to purchase P3D v4 and get everything back up & running. Just installed/started FlyInside, was shocked to see that it STILL, after I and numerous others have requested the ability to disable VR and go back to the computer screen for bonafide flight training on PilotEdge or elsewhere, that this simple capability still does not exist.


This one might sound simple from your description, but it's nearly impossible for us to implement as an add-on. Our software either intercepts the rendering pipeline for VR, or it doesn't. Once it's intercepted, it's not a matter of just turning it off either. The resources we create for VR, the simulator stores its own references to. So if we try to swap them back, things break. Simply put, we could spend months and months working around this, and maybe having a working "ON / OFF" switch, or maybe find out we wasted months on something that just won't work (and could have gone to other fixes/features). I wish we didn't lose a user to this one, but we don't have much choice. This isn't a sign of apathy on our part

RarphRaider wrote:does anyone even use P3D flyinside? Will anyone even buy their "flight simulator" after this experience?
I wish they would just fix the many many very obvious bugs in the software. Its extremely frustrating.
There's game breaking bug sitting there for who knows how long. These are not the type of bugs that takes 6 months to fix. More like 1 day.


Yes we have many happy pilots using FlyInside, no, none of our bugs which would be considered game-breaking (??) are one-day fixes. I don't understand where these two ideas would even come from. I won't disagree that the software is rough around the edges, we're working to improve it. RarphRaider, I've specifically e-mailed you in the past to try to capture and resolve the bugs you've been running into, to no response.

Conceit wrote:Well, honestly I can only support the other users' claims here, Tony. As an example, the whole support for motion controllers (e.g., Oculus Touch on FSX) isn't working very decently. These are not exactly "bugs", but it is far away from being mature. Many controls are not reachable, or not even implemented, or usable with motion controllers. I am also disappointed that these very obvious issues (just try flying Boeing or Airbus on a Steam FSX) that I categorized under "early release issues" found no further polishing. Also, I had bugs in multi-monitor mode (with FSX trying to find windows on the wrong desktop), and we already talked about that. I found work-arounds by myself, but it is still nasty to edit config files every now-and-then. As there was no release since then, I guess nothing happened here. I'm sure if there was a public bug database, you'd have a nice collection of tasks without needing to ask your customes to prove their complaints on the forum.


Motion control variability across aircraft is definitely our largest weakness. Our next release (should be mid-December) is actually focused on improving this. It's taking longer than it should have for sure, but we're getting there. Config files are a tricky line to walk. Being an add-on, that interacts with a simulator, and then with more add-ons, many doing all sorts of zany things, then dealing with VR hardware, etc... our software runs into a vast number of configurations, some we never anticipated. If we try to make the software configure itself for every situation, it inevitably breaks for some users. On the other hand, too little auto-config and the software becomes very difficult to use (without lots of hacking around). We try to strike a balance, but you're right that it can be unpolished.

Conceit wrote:The forum and support isn't actually on fire as well. I read threads about persons not getting their serial#, and who are mad that they have to go to the forums with these issues because support does not respond on emails. Also, many posts on the forums stay unanswered, like that guy asking for ways to incorporate tool-windows into VR prior to buying a VR headset, and so on. To me as a casual user, this looks like abandonware: Six months, no progress, slow support, users help users on the forum, and the team's stuck with new products to generate more income. Not seeing any form of lifecycle management whatsoever.


For serial numbers, we have an auto-e-mailer (I don't hand-write these). On rare occasion, users don't receive their key due to an overactive spam filter, typo, or just a stray glitch in our mailer. We really prioritize "missing key" e-mails because it's beyond unfair for someone to pay and receive no product. If you see "missing key" on the forum, they probably e-mailed at 2am, I was on the road when they sent, etc. Because I always try to answer this ASAP

I'd say it's pretty unfair to call the software abandon-ware. In the past six months we've released FlyInside 1.81 (a huge number of fixes), added Prepar3D v4 support, and gotten X-Plane 11.10 working (huge rendering changes). You'll see a major update in December as well.

Conceit wrote:Maybe you guys have to maintain too many products in a too small team. FlyInside FSX/XPlane/P3Dv3/P3Dv4 and now your very own simulator. It is noteworthy that everything stagnated as soon as you announced the new flight sim. Obviously, you do not see that you already have a user base of willing-to-pay customers. Literally, everybody with a VR headset and flight-sim fetish already came along your products. That means, we are the customers for your brand new flight sim.


No denying this is the biggest issue. We're a small team, and can't put all of the time we want into everything. That said, we haven't abandoned our products either. We've made small, steady improvements. We've crunched to get a compatibility update out as quickly as possible every time an update has come out (several times with X-Plane, Prepar3D, even some SteamVR/driver bugs). I think you'll appreciate our next update too.

I truly believe that the sim will speak for itself. We're running behind schedule on this, but what we have so far is really great. Super fluid VR graphics, near-perfect controller+Leap Motion support, stable/crash-free. It's a good flight simulator in its own right, and when it comes to virtual reality flightsim, a true game-changer. When you try it, I think you'll understand why we felt the need to split our focus onto this project.

If you're really worried we'll abandon the sim after launch, look how long we've been providing updates to FlyInside. We launched the first major beta during our Kickstarter, August 2015. We've provided a stream of updates ever since, and although we can't quite keep up our old pace, we're still going.

Thanks,
Dan
Your friendly neighborhood developer!
Contact Me: dan@flyinside-fsx.com
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Re: Wow, no FlyInside Progress in 6 months

Postby jelder » Tue Dec 05, 2017 12:18 am

Hi Dan. Happy user here. Was particularly impressed with how fast you guys were able to support XP 11.10. I am always impressed with a developer that can respond to these types of threads with patience, honestly and humility. Any chance that Microsoft Mixed reality support will be part of the December releases?

Thanks.

Jim
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Re: Wow, no FlyInside Progress in 6 months

Postby betampona » Tue Dec 05, 2017 5:24 am

Hello, if you're talking about Flyinside flight simulator, you could put this text in NEW !!!! Flyinside Flight Simulator. READ NOW !!! from this forum and give us additional info.
Dominique.
[quoteI truly believe that the sim will speak for itself. We're running behind schedule on this, but what we have so far is really great. Super fluid VR graphics, near-perfect controller+Leap Motion support, stable/crash-free. It's a good flight simulator in its own right, and when it comes to virtual reality flightsim, a true game-changer. When you try it, I think you'll understand why we felt the need to split our focus onto this project.][/quote]
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Re: Wow, no FlyInside Progress in 6 months

Postby RarphRaider » Tue Dec 05, 2017 7:40 am

Greyman wrote:could you please post some details of the bugs that you are experiencing, particularly the one that you feel is the game breaker, so that the devs have more than just unhelpful rhetoric to go on?

Your frustrations are far more likely to be addressed if you could do that.


When you start FSX there are no Vive controllers. It's been posted about 25 different times. I've already spoken at length with someone over email. Dan? and resolved the same problem with XP11.
As you can see from my ridiculously lengthy procedure viewtopic.php?f=43&t=6341
I finally have it working in XP11...sort of.

I spent about 10 hours yesterday trying to get it to work in FSX to no avail. Seems obvious to me it's a bug. That's a 1 day bug for someone with the code.

Look, I'm just happy that the XP11 is working as well as it is. No more debugging for me, I'll just play that since I have it working now.
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Re: Wow, no FlyInside Progress in 6 months

Postby Conceit » Tue Dec 05, 2017 10:23 am

admin wrote:I'd say it's pretty unfair to call the software abandon-ware. In the past six months we've released FlyInside 1.81 (a huge number of fixes), added Prepar3D v4 support, and gotten X-Plane 11.10 working (huge rendering changes). You'll see a major update in December as well.


Hey Dan, thanks for the long reply. I see valid points in all the things that you said, except the one quoted above, which I find quite wrong. It was a very clear statement of the dev-team, here on the forums, that all those "ports" to different simulators are independent products. There were a lot of users - me included - who asked for a discount for buying multiple versions of FlyInside, and this request was always denied with the argument that these independent products, developed by mostly independent teams, require independent payment. Ok, that was clearly communicated, understandable, fair, and I could accept that.

Now, when I call the product that I payed for "abandon-ware", as this independent product showed no update progress or any communicated future plans for 6 months, there's only one unfair thing about it: The argument, that the devs all worked on some of the other independent products, but not mine.
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