Helicopter physics discussion

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Helicopter physics discussion

Postby John Hargreaves » Sat Oct 13, 2018 9:32 am

I would love this sim to be a success, and it's great to see three good helicopters available on day one. MilViz have done some fine work and it's nice to see them involved.
I realise it's still very early days, but I wonder what the devs point of view regarding helicopter physics will be? In this early implementation, it feels more like FSX than XP11/DCS; I'm not feeling the hovering in ground effect or effective translational lift yet for example. The helicopter sim sub genre is small but very passionate, and there is a tremendous amount of expertise and feedback available out there to help get the physics up there with the best. I'm no expert, but there are definitely many who are and would contribute I'm sure.
I took the liberty of emailing Sergio at Helisimmer.com about FFS, and I'm sure if he gives it some exposure it will become more widely known among the community.
The VR base of FFS is so good, and helicopters really are the best way to appreciate the scenery, so you guys could have a real winner on your hands. Maybe if you could build up the helicopter physics to the level of the best in the business that would help to give you a selling point to distinguish it from some of the competition.
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Re: Helicopter physics discussion

Postby admin » Sat Oct 13, 2018 9:45 am

Yes, the current heli flight-model is "bare-bones" for sure ;) We currently have a "Heli Flightmodel 2.0" under development with:
-ETL
-VRS
-Ground Effect
-Translational Lift
-Torque Limitations
-Auto-rotation support

It's in the works for sure, but we didn't want to hold up launch on it :)

Thanks,
Dan
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Re: Helicopter physics discussion

Postby John Hargreaves » Sat Oct 13, 2018 3:42 pm

Nice one Dan, great to hear that. I agree it was better to get the thing out the door first, generate some interest and then steadily build on the bare bones as and when you get the chance.
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Re: Helicopter physics discussion

Postby John Hargreaves » Sun Dec 23, 2018 5:45 am

Just a quick question regarding the December 2018 0.4.2 update, where are we with the helicopter flight model currently? I'm not feeling the ground effect, translational lift etc, but if that is still in the pipeline and hasn't been added, there's no point bothering you with feedback just yet. I can't find any release notes or anything on the forum, is there anything to read so we know where to target our feedback?
i7-7700K/MSI RTX 3080/Win10 64bit/64Gb RAM/Asus Xonar DX+Beyer Dynamic DT990 Pro headphones/LG 34" UM65 @2560x1080/TM Warthog+VKB MkIV Rudder pedals/OE-XAM R22 collective/Reverb G2
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Re: Helicopter physics discussion

Postby admin » Sun Dec 23, 2018 7:22 pm

Sorry John, still in the pipeline. We wanted to have this for the December update but our hands were full just with working on stall/spin behavior for airplanes, and of course, the scenery changes. It's near the top of our priority list now though :)
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Re: Helicopter physics discussion

Postby John Hargreaves » Mon Dec 24, 2018 3:45 am

No problem, thanks for the info, I'll keep checking back. Have a good holiday ;)
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Re: Helicopter physics discussion

Postby blave » Sun Jan 06, 2019 7:06 pm

I'm Another One Of Those Guys -- wanting a semi-accurate rotary flight model. But, I have to say, I've spent way too many hours in FSX helis, and a lot less in XP (I've thrown a lot of $ at XP over the years, and consider most of it to be wasted), and I have never felt like I was flying the way I do in the 407. I'm sure that VR has a lot to do with it, but it's also the stellar MilViz cockpit modeling. I'm pretty excited! and looking fwd to the new flight model. If you can come close to the experience of an autorotation (done well and not done well ;^) ), I'm gonna be a happy camper.

cheers,
Dave
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Re: Helicopter physics discussion

Postby admin » Sun Jan 06, 2019 9:11 pm

Hi Dave,

We've been working hard on those heli updates and are shooting to have a release out end-of-week. Not the final release mind you as there will still be work to do, but it's a huge improvement over our current live heli model. If you're interested in helping to test it out (John or Dave) shoot me an e-mail, dan@flyinside-fsx.com . Could definitely use some feedback on how the autos feel :)

Thanks,
Dan
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Re: Helicopter physics discussion

Postby Mr_man » Mon Jan 07, 2019 5:41 pm

This would be great. So far the only remotely realistic helicopter handling I've experienced has been in DCS World, which is well known for being very hit & miss as far as VR is concerned (at least the current version of it). It will be great to fly some civilian helicopters with realistic flight dynamics.

There was no way I would have believed this possible in my lifetime, when I bought my first computer - a Spectrum 48 - specifically for Tomahawk - the first ever commercial virtual helicopter simulator release (or so they claimed, as far as "simulator" is concerned :) ). Funnily enough, I still play it, on occasion.
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Re: Helicopter physics discussion

Postby John Hargreaves » Sun Jan 13, 2019 6:59 am

Hi guys, just a bit of feedback on the January update flying the Bell 407 (full realism mode). Firstly, I am far from being an expert on this, I'm merely an enthusiastic amateur, so you need to speak to people with extensive real world experience, (I have a lot of sim hours in DCS and XP11, a lot of time spent in books learning the theory and a few hours of real lessons in an R44) but I guess any feedback is welcome.
First impressions: big improvement. Feels like we are moving in the right direction over what we had before.
Leaving the ground: the point where the helicopter goes light on the skids and starts to tell you where it wants to go seems to be quite brief. It currently feels that the collective comes up to 'biting point' and you are straight off the ground. I'd expect a small period where you feel the aircraft go light but still stay on the ground, then a little further pull on the collective brings it up into the hover in the cushion of air you are creating. It might just be due to lack of g-force in a sim.
Hover: feels not bad at all. I got into a pretty stable hover first try, it just felt quite natural. The pedals allowed me to rotate and I could taxi around quite happily.
Moving forward: nudging the cyclic gently forward and adding a tiny bit of collective got the 407 going in the right direction and did generate a bit of translational lift, but I felt the effect was a bit weak and I didn't feel like I was picking up much momentum, almost as if the density of the air was too thin. Also as I picked up speed, I would expect the weather vane effect to start to keep the fuselage going a bit straighter, but the torque effect of the main rotor seemed to be present, then disappear abruptly at a certain speed rather than being a gradually decreasing effect. Once up to 60 knots or so I was able to come off the pedals, so the effect is there.
In forward flight I was feeling a general lack of lift, and lowering the collective, even at quite a fast airspeed, the helicopter seemed to drop quite quickly rather than cut through the air. Again it felt like the air was very thin.
Cruising along and pulling the collective up without doing anything else, the 407 just gained altitude rather than screwing itself over my right shoulder, so there was no torque effect from the increased power going into the system. I'd expect raising collective > increased lift > increased power to rotor to maintain rpm > increased torque > left pedal to balance it.
Hope this helps to keep improving, as I said, overall it's a massive step forward and very encouraging, and there will be far more experienced and knowledgeable guys than me who you can draw upon. Onwards and upwards!
i7-7700K/MSI RTX 3080/Win10 64bit/64Gb RAM/Asus Xonar DX+Beyer Dynamic DT990 Pro headphones/LG 34" UM65 @2560x1080/TM Warthog+VKB MkIV Rudder pedals/OE-XAM R22 collective/Reverb G2
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